In a couple of days I am going to lay into some religious people, but before I do I want to just let one off at Richard Dawkins.
This is an attack on militant atheism.
It is not an attack on Atheism. Atheism is the sincere belief that there is no God or gods. It is a rational, defensible belief, held many of my friends.
Nor is this an attack on secularism. Secularism is the belief that the Church and state should be separate. Secularism is the philosophy which underpins the university in which I work. Though it is often associated with atheism actually secularism as a philosophy was born of a desire for religious freedom. One of Britain's most celebrated secular educational institutions University College, London is now thought of as the brainchild of 19th century atheists like Jeremy Bentham. However originally the idea for a non-religious college in London came from non-conformist Christians who were barred from the Anglican Universities of Oxford and Cambridge.
Finally this is not an attack on the Atheist Society of Southampton University.
This is an attack aimed directly at Richgard Dawkins and militant atheism.
The first problem with radical atheism is it's oppressive evangelicalism. Its crusading zeal that wishes to sweep aside all in its path. Richard Dawkins has found his truth. I am pleased for him. Why therefore must he turn on me? It is not enough for militant atheists not to practice a faith, not to believe one? Faith is so disturbing and 'unholy' it must be destroyed.
Sam Harris for example has argued that believers are simply 'deranged'. Not misguided. Not in error but deranged. More disturbingly he believes that some beliefs are so dangerous that perhaps we should actually kill people for holding them. When you argue that, you're not very far from intellectual ethnic cleansing. The answer to 'dangerous' beliefs is not eradication but education. The answer to differences of opinions is not destruction but dialogue. It is hard to dialogue with someone who hates your beliefs and pretty much hates you for holding them.
The second and biggest problem with militant atheism is that it is political. Not that this is, in and of itself, wrong but it is misguided in its politics. You have to ask yourself the question why now? Why is radical militant atheism now so celebrated? Why are so many, until now, unknown scientists (like Harris) suddenly writing books about theology? I'll give you a one word answer: Bush.
This whole thing rests on a mistaken belief that the evangelical fundamentalists are in control of America and are driving policy there. This is partly to do with the media, particularly the British media misunderstanding both the US and it's evangelicals. It's not just US of course I received an e-mail recently arguing that people like me had put Bush and Blair into power. I did vote for Blair but because I'm left wing not right.
Evangelical fundamentalist are a minority in this country AND in the US. The news loves to show us pictures of packed US churches all promising to vote Republican and we think that is typical. This is far from the case. The news constantly blurs the distinction between evangelicalism, which can cover all manner of doctrines including some very liberal ideas and fundamentalism. Although 26% of Americans are evangelicals very few of those are fundamentalists.
Fundamentalist do not have an expansionist political agenda. Although they seek to convert the whole world this is not about setting up some kind of US empire so they are not pushing the war on Iraq for example. Most of them fear a one world empire as the fulfillment of the Great Beast of Revaluation. They are not in favor of a white house that will bring that about. Most of them are firmly isolationist.
If you look at the two things which are right at the top of the Evangelical fundamentalist agenda, making homosexual acts and abortion illegal you will see that apart from some noises actually the White House has done nothing in it's last 7 years. What the Bush administration has done has been to use the Fundamentalist vote as a convenient usable commodity. Not enough to settle an election but enough not to throw away. In return for their votes they have got virtually noting. If you look to a book called ‘Tempting Faith’ by David Kuo you can read about what the Bush administration really thinks of these people.
But radical militant atheism persists in it's view that religion is the driving force behind the Bush administration and thus ALL the worlds current problems.
Oh yes with a little help from Islamic fundamentalists. Oh look more evil religious people! Actually Islamists are mostly political groups pursuing political aims.
So Richard Dawkins and co. We are a minority. We are not powerful. We do not run the world. We did not 'do' the middle east. We are not interested in oil.
Blame capitalism.
We are just quietly believing in God. Shut up. Go away and let us do that in peace.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)

16 comments:
You might be interested in a talk Dawkins gave a while ago where he made a 'call to arms' asking atheists to become militant atheists. I must say I agree with him.
Anyway here it is: http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/113
I am posting this because I made a post on similar lines but in favour of Dawkins earlier tonight and was pointed at your blog: http://robhu.livejournal.com/441850.html?nc=9
Hey,
I'm a Christian who is working on a series on Dawkins' book "The God Delusion" at my blog at:
http://michaelkrahn.wordpress.com/richard-dawkins/
Join me there for some discussion.
From their point of view, you can sort of see why they feel the need to eradicate rather than educate; if indeed they think we are misguided, deranged, etc., and all those other lovely insults people of faith tend to attract, then clearly, no amount of education is going to knock sense into our head, is it? As it is, we already believe that God became Man, and then Died, and then Rose from the Dead, and the Catholics believe we Eat God Weekly. Who wouldn't think we're nutters beyond reason/saving and would rather wipe us out before we evangelise, oops, I mean, corrupt the rest of the rational-thinking world? Killing us is in their best interests really. Don't grudge them for being practical about it.
Sheena - wipe you out? What are you talking about? Dawkins who is generally seen as the most 'militant' and villified of all atheists only wants public debate about religious beliefs, he doesn't want people to be forced to accept things the way he sees them, he doesn't want people to go blow theists up, he isn't going to turn you into property because you're of some lower order than him.
These are the kinds of thing that happen in religion, yet it is those of us like Dawkins who dare to question religious beliefs that are called 'militant'. What is so militant about what we're doing? Nothing. It's actually much weaker than the level of debate that happens about many other issues, yet religion is seen as being specially protected, and when you dare step over that line and question these irrational beliefs you get called militant.
"Who wouldn't think we're nutters beyond reason/saving and would rather wipe us out before we evangelise, oops, I mean, corrupt the rest of the rational-thinking world? Killing us is in their best interests really."
Wipe you out? Kill you? What are you talking about?
Well Sheena could be thinking of Sam Harris who has argued that some beliefs are so dangerous it might be ethical to kill the believers.
I mentioned him in my blog entry.
I would argue that Dawkins goes further than just calling for debate...I think Dawkins wants to do away with religion.
I also think he only sees fundamentalism as 'real' religion which is why he sees it as slightly dangerous.
Oh and welcome to the blog Robhu
In correction, Dawkins is actually known for his unwillingness to debate. He won't debate because he sees that as somehow verifying part of the opponents point of view. He won't debate someone like Alister McGrath, which is disappointing, not least to those atheist friends I have who think Dawkins would walk all over him. It also wouldn't be a debate whoever you got on the other side. Most likely, you would find someone set in their beliefs and it would simply turn into an argument match - who can level the one that "floors" the other. Perhaps you would find someone willing to listen, but then Dawkins isn't, and - much like the rational Christian in "The Root of All Evil" - Dawkins would simply dismiss their point of view as being selective, or unheard or, or a mystery to the wider Christian faith - because religion can *never* be rational... and why is that? Because Dawkins defines it as such.
I assume you're talking about what Harris said in the End of Faith (p52 - 53):
" The power that belief has over our emotional lives appears to be total. For every emotion that you are capable of feeling, there is surely a belief that could invoke it in a matter of moments. Consider the following proposition:
Your daughter is being slowly tortured in an English jail.
What is it that stands between you and the absolute panic that such a proposition would loose in the mind and body of a person who believed it? Perhaps you do not have a daughter, or you know her to be safely at home, or you believe that English jailors are renowned for their congeniality. Whatever the reason, the door to belief has not yet swung upon its hinges.
The link between belief and behaviour raises the stakes considerably. Some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them. This may seem an extraordinary claim, but it merely enunciates an ordinary fact about the world in which we live. Certain beliefs place their adherents beyond the reach of every peaceful means of persuasion, while inspiring them to commit acts of extraordinary violence against others. There is, in fact, no talking to some people. If they cannot be captured, and they often cannot, otherwise tolerant people may be justified in killing them in self-defense. This is what the United States attempted in Afghanistan, and it is what we and other Western powers are bound to attempt, at an even greater cost to ourselves and to innocents abroad, elsewhere in the Muslim world. We will continue to spill blood in what is, at bottom, a war of ideas. (The End of Faith, p52-53.)"
Harris is quite clearly talking about people who motivated by their beliefs are going to commit acts of 'extraordinary violence' against other people. He is saying that where peaceful persuasion is not going to work we should use force. In the context of where it is in the book and the fuller quote you can see he is talking about the absolute extreme end of the scale, people intending to blow themselves and others up, that kind of thing.
I don't disagree with Harris here, if we could have sent in a SWAT team and killed the 9/11 hijackers I think that would have been a good thing.
He is definitely not saying that believers in general should be killed, only those about to commit atrocities who cannot be stopped by other means.
Thanks for the welcome Yellow.
I agree Dawkins wants to do away with religion (as do I), but the means by which he wants to do this is debate, argument, and reason, not violence.
I don't see what is wrong with Dawkins wanting a world without religion. Why is he called a 'militant' atheist for wanting such a world? He isn't forcing this belief on anyone, he isn't using violence, he isn't taking away your rights.
Dawkins won't debate McGrath eh? Well what is this debate between McGrath and Dawkins then?
http://richarddawkins.net/article,802,Richard-Dawkins-at-The-Sunday-Times-Oxford-Literary-Festival,Richard-Dawkins
Also here is the unedited version of his interview with McGrath for the Root of all evil?*
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6474278760369344626&hl=en-GB
Unfortunately McGrath didn't make it into the final edit of TROAE. I think that is a least in part because McGrath seems only able to give very long indirect answers to questions that he wasn't asked. Watch the unedited footage and draw your own conclusions.
* naughty channel 4 left off the question mark that was supposed to be part of the program name
Also Dawkins was recently at a IQ squared event in London as one of a panel of three (with a panel of three against). So it's completely wrong for people to think that he doesn't take part in debates, he does.
He doesn't take part in debates with creationists because creationists have put a lot of effort into misrepresenting him. On one occasion a film crew (who did not say they were creationists) staged a set up and later used the video to imply that Dawkins could not answer a simple question about evolution. See: http://www.skeptics.com.au/articles/dawkins.htm
The video itself can be found on YouTube.
Fair points - and I was aware of that debate, so must have slipped my mind. I know Dawkins has been interviewed a lot on the matter (rather than debates per se) - including by someone I personally know:
http://www.damaris.org/content/content.php?type=5&id=102
Personally I would prefer to see Dawkins debate someone like Denis Alexander - a senior biologist at Cambridge, who knows a lot of theology; a fairer 'match'. That and the fact that, having read books from both sides, between McGrath and Alexander there is a wide gap in terms of style and presentation - Alexander easily coming out the more 'mature' of the writers. I'd recommend Alexander's "Rebuilding the Matrix" over McGrath easily. On the plus side, McGrath did actually reference the points he made in "The Dawkins Delusion" with further reading, and did preface the book to reflect the sketched answers he gives. McGrath does know his stuff, but I don't think his way of carrying it across works as well as when he writes about the history of theology, for instance. But it's good to see he is 'sharpening up' - if only mildly.
I'm glad the 'rational vicar' made it into TROAE where McGrath didn't, but still Dawkins dismissed his points in but a few seconds. It's clear that any form of symbiosis between "rationality/science" and faith cannot exist for him. Which is a mistake, in my opinion.
AFAIK Dawkins and the bishop (ex bishop?) of Oxford get on quite well, I think Dawkins referred to him as a friend on one occasion.
There is a 34 minute video of the unedited interview they had online for those with nothing better to do with their time ;-)
http://richarddawkins.net/article,902,Richard-Dawkins-interviews-the-Bishop-of-Oxford,Richard-Dawkins-Foundation-Root-of-All-Evil
That's a fantastic video - my (already fairly high) respect for Dawkins has increased... However the fact it was cut down to one dismissed soundbite in TRoAE says a lot...
Why doesn't Dawkins show stuff like this more publicly? Probably because it's a risk - it may alienate some stauncher atheists and attract more "possibly liable" Christians... It's disappointing that the public face of Dawkins does not include anything like this.
"However the fact it was cut down to one dismissed soundbite in TRoAE says a lot..."
I don't see any reason to expect it's anything other than time constraints. Also I get the impression (from things he has said elsewhere) that Channel 4 had a large amount of editorial control over the programme.
"Why doesn't Dawkins show stuff like this more publicly? Probably because it's a risk - it may alienate some stauncher atheists and attract more "possibly liable" Christians... It's disappointing that the public face of Dawkins does not include anything like this."
Umm... this was put online by the Richard Dawkins foundation, and when there was a problem with it (originally it was set to only allow US visitors to view the video) Dawkins himself came online (on the forums) to apologise and let everyone know he was sorting it out himself.
The RDF will also be releasing all the uncut footage on DVD fairly soon (although I get the impression they're going to put it all on YouTube / Google video first).
So it's completely wrong to suggest Dawkins wants to keep this kind of thing secret. He is the person who published it, and believe me, the RDF website is the most staunch den of hardcore Dawkinsians there is ;-)
I think Harris is a lot more outspoken than Dawkins, so much so that it's unfair to lump them together merely because they both published books around the same time. While Harris isn't actually advocating killing people for their beliefs, his attitude to torture in The End of Faith is pretty unsavoury.
Dawkins's public image as shrill and hectoring is created by theists, who refer to him as a "fundamentalist" or "militant", and possibly by TV editors who cut things together to make them sound exciting. The fact that he's actually quite mild in person isn't a secret from people who've seen or heard him debate, although it did come as a surprise to Ruth Gledhill recently.
Post a Comment